Public Accounts Committee: Uisce Eireann and Dept. of Housing, Planning & Local Government
Full Transcript:
Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh: I am going to stick with housing in the broad sense but
change focus. I want to ask about local authority retrofit of social housing. My understanding
of it is that the target the Department set is to retrofit all social homes by 2050. By implication,
that means by 2049 there will still be some of our most vulnerable people living in cold houses
with high energy prices, and not just cold houses but very often unhealthy houses or houses that
produce air pollution or emissions, etc. We will have a huge issue in how we tackle the retrofit
of rental properties, but considering the State, as a landlord, is setting itself a target of completing a retrofit programme by 2050 only, can we stand over that as a State? Have we any plans to
accelerate that roll out? How are we planning the roll out? How are we prioritising and making
sure we reach the furthest behind first?
Mr. Graham Doyle: There are about 140,000 local authority homes. About 5,000 are already at a building energy rating, BER, of B2 because they are new homes delivered in recent
years. Some 75,000 had a shallow retrofit at the start and 36,000 social homes are to have a
deep retrofit under the two programmes, the energy efficiency retrofit and the midlands retrofit
programmes. That is being done at the moment at a rate of just over 2,000 a year. That shallow
retrofit was extensive at an earlier stage for about half the stock. As I said, a good proportion of
the stock of social houses is already at B2 because 35,000 of them are new and at that standard.
Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh: Similarly, there is a good shot of social housing that is nowhere near B2. Have we some sort of analysis across our social housing stock on where we
are in energy efficiency? Are we still looking at a lot of F- and G-rated homes, 1930s council
housing stock, where, no matter how much coal is shovelled onto the fire, the heat goes straight
up the chimney? Have we a clear and comprehensive picture of where we are with our social
housing stock?
Mr. Graham Doyle: In the case of the 75,000 houses, the more than half that had shallow
retrofits, there will have been very good progress in addressing some of those issues the Deputy
refers to. In terms of the analysis, I do not have it to hand but I am happy to get it for the Deputy.
Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh: That would be useful to have. If 140,000 homes are in social
housing, I would like to understand how many are F- and G-rated. There is no heating an F- or
G-rated home. You are going to heat one room of your home and you are going to do it at great
cost. Energy efficiency means a lot.
Mr. Graham Doyle: I can tell the Deputy that of the 140,000, 75,000 have had a shallow
retrofit, 35,000 are fully up to BER B2 rating.
Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh: That still leaves—–
Mr. Graham Doyle: That still leaves 35,000 of them, and the rest are undergoing the deep
retrofit under the programme.
Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh: I thank Mr. Doyle. There is a lot more to dig into there, but
I want to have a look at water issues. Another Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, report
out this morning tells us that, shockingly, three Olympic-sized swimming pools of untreated
raw sewage go into Ireland’s water systems every day. Some of the comments made by the
EPA director, Dr. Tom Ryan, indicate that, 30 years after we were due to comply with EU environmental protection standards, less than half of wastewater is being treated to the standards
required. Most damningly in this big picture, and there are some small, specific pieces I want to
delve into, he says Uisce Éireann should have a long-term plan for this work but does not have
clear plans to prevent pollution at some of the most significantly impacted water bodies. Uisce
Éireann was much feted when it came into being as the solution to these issues. Can we stand
over that rate of failure in terms of our wastewater treatment?
Mr. Niall Gleeson: It has to be remembered we are starting from a base of complete underinvestment for probably 60 to 80 years. Since Uisce Éireann has come on board, we have
made huge improvements. Those improvements are acknowledged in the EPA’s report. It is
critical of our rate of progress but acknowledges we are making progress. One of the biggest
impacts for our rate of progress is around planning, especially in the wastewater area because
everybody wants wastewater treatment in their town or village but nobody wants it anywhere
near their house. We have big challenges in getting those through the planning process, judicial
reviews and all that kind of stuff. We are making significant progress, however. We have done
workshops with the EPA because we are putting together our plan for revenue control period 4,
RC 4, which is what we will propose to the Commission for Regulation of Utilities, CRU, over
the next year. We have discussed with the EPA what we intend to do with that plan and the other
plans that are in place. There might be areas where we do not have detailed plans, but the EPA
has certainly seen significant plans. Mr. Laffey might wish to comment on this, but the areas
where we do not have plans are—–
Mr. Sean Laffey: It is important to have context. We have roughly 1,100 wastewater treatment plants. By number, 91% of those are compliant with the urban wastewater treatment
directive. By volume, though, only 40% are compliant. The main driver of that difference is
Ringsend, which treats approximately 45% of the volume of wastewater produced in the country.
Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh: I understand.
Mr. Sean Laffey: Ringsend will be compliant by the end of the year, which will put us at
over 90% compliance by volume.
Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh: I do not mean to interrupt, but I have an eye on the clock.
We have a picture of the situation at wastewater treatment plant level, but we do not have a picture of small private water supplies. Rather, we do not have anywhere near as clear a picture as
we need. Another concern is septic tanks. I suppose I am referring to water in, water out. According to an EPA report from June 2022 on septic tank inspection rates, 1,147 inspections had
been carried out. Of that tiny number, 53% of septic tanks failed and 29% were considered a
risk to human health. Twenty tanks were tested in Waterford that year. What is our testing rate?
How many domestic septic tanks are there and what percentage of them are we testing per year?
Mr. Sean Laffey: I am sorry to cut across the Deputy, but we have no part to play in septic
tank inspections.
Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh: So, they are for local authorities.
Mr. Graham Doyle: I will ask Mr. Towey to comment on the rural water programme.
Mr. Fintan Towey: Approximately 30% of households are dependent on domestic wastewater treatment systems. Most of those are septic tanks.
Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh: So that I can compare like with like, how many of those were
inspected? If there were 1,147 inspections in 2020, what percentage of the overall stock are we
talking about?
Mr. Fintan Towey: I do not know the percentage of the stock off the top of my head. I
could work it out. Approximately 30% of households in the country have a septic tank. The
rate of inspection is quite low relative to the stock.
Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh: Would it be fair to characterise it as extremely low?
Mr. Fintan Towey: I would say it is quite low, but an important point to remember is that,-
Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh: Are we hitting 1% per year?
Mr. Fintan Towey: —–by design at the planning stage, a septic tank is allowed as a solution because, in the context and in the setting—–
Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh: I know that. The house I grew up in was built in the 1970s
before I was born and has a septic tank that is 50 years old. That is not atypical. Are we even
hitting 1% per year for the number of septic tanks being tested?
Mr. Fintan Towey: It is probably a low single-digit percentage, but I am not going to jump
at the figure.
Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh: Am I right in saying that, if someone wants to avail of a grant
to upgrade his or her septic tank, it first has to fail an inspection?
Mr. Fintan Towey: Predominately, yes. There are limited circumstances otherwise.
Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh: There is a specific scheme for domestic wastewater treatment systems in houses situated in high-status objective catchment areas. There is a large
catchment area in Waterford that covers most of the Comeragh Mountains and another out in
west Waterford. When I conducted a mail-out on this matter, no one in those areas was aware
of the scheme, which I believe involves 80% grant funding. What is the scheme’s uptake rate?
Mr. Fintan Towey: It is quite low and varies from year to year.
Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh: As I understand it, there is still money in the pot because it
has not been drawn down.
Mr. Fintan Towey: Yes.
Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh: A massive part of Wicklow, much of Clare and large swathes
of west Cork are in these catchment areas, and those are only the ones that come to mind from
looking at the issue. There is no uptake.
Mr. Fintan Towey: The scheme is administered through the local authorities, but the Deputy is correct, in that the uptake level relative to the provision is quite low. It is typically between
100 and 200 households per year.
Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh: I am reminded of the Clinton-era military policy of “Don’t
ask, don’t tell”. The flip side of this coin is the issue of private wells. We are not testing them
in any sort of meaningful way. I imagine that the percentage of private water solutions being
tested in real time mirrors that of septic tanks being tested. We can focus on Uisce Éireann, and
the EPA has been critical of its achievements this morning, but at least I have a picture of those.
I can at least look at the map and see whether Kilmore Quay needs to be addressed. There are
many areas that are not captured, for example, Bunmahon in my constituency and Tramore pier
at the bottom of my road, which is a whole other can of worms, but at least I have a picture. For
private water into houses – wells – and septic tanks, though, I have no picture at all.
An Cathaoirleach: Mr. Towey should reply briefly.
Mr. Fintan Towey: The model in respect of private wells is that they are allowed as a solution to meet the water requirements of households at the planning stage, but it is the responsibility of the householder to ensure that source is appropriate.
Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh: These are two sides of the same coin.
Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh: I want to make the specific request, coming back to my earlier contribution, that the committee be provided with a breakdown of social housing by energy
efficiency, building energy rating, BER, so that it has a clear idea of that.
Mr. Graham Doyle: Any information we have we will get for the Deputy.
Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh: Insofar as it is available. We would also like to be able to
quantify what level of information is not available so that we understand, God help us, the
known knowns and the unknown knowns or whatever that phrase is.
Mr. Graham Doyle: Yes, absolutely.
Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh: Ideally by local authority area as well, if possible, so we
know where we should be concentrating resources. Similarly, I would like information on the
rate of testing of private septic tanks. We have a mixture of figures on that and I would like
to know that by overall number per annum and by percentage. Could we have that by local
authority area as well?
I listened with interest to Mr. Doyle’s answer to Deputy O’Connor’s questions. Midleton in
his constituency and places in my constituency, such as Tallow and Clashmore, were very much
affected by the flooding that happened recently. I accept that Met Éireann did what I believe
was a good job within the parameters it is currently given. The red weather warning was not
appropriate in that scenario because that has specific implications. However, as I understand
it, there is a delay in regard to the expenditure because this is directly under Mr. Doyle’s Department and Met Éireann is funded under programme E. There was an expenditure of €1.254
million due to delays in the progression of projects, including a flood forecasting database.
This is the specific type of forecasting we need. It is different from the countywide red weather
warning, orange warning or whatever. It is specifically around flood forecasting. Why has that
been delayed?
Mr. Graham Doyle: Met Éireann is taking over from the existing service that is provided
under the Office of Public Works, OPW. It is trying to go further with the forecasting piece. I
believe some of the delays were associated with trying to recruit specialist expertise in terms of
radar systems, a flood forecasting database, a coastal model review, tide gauge, and all of these
types of issues that require that expertise.
Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh: Is staffing the delay?
Mr. Graham Doyle: It is my understanding that staffing is why it has taken a little longer.
What has been done is being done to a very professional standard. Met Éireann does its work
to a very professional standard and is very meticulous about it and is working now to complete
that project.
Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh: I am assuming that, considering the recent flooding events,
this has become a priority.
Mr. Graham Doyle: I do not think it affected it. The information that was given, was given
in this case. I do not think it affected those recent events but having absolute state-of-the-art
service for the future is the objective.
Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh: What is the timeline for the completion of that piece of
work? Have those recruitment issues been solved? Are people in place? Is the work ongoing?
Mr. Graham Doyle: We have written to OPW to ask it to accept that we are taking over
through Met Éireann. I am trying to remember the timeline. I think there is a date close to the
end of the year but it is just escaping me at the moment.
Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh: Will Mr. Doyle provide that to the committee because it is
particularly pertinent at the minute?
Mr. Graham Doyle: Yes.
Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh: In terms of active travel spend, this gets channelled through
the National Transport Authority, NTA, but a lot of it gets spent through our local authorities. I
have a concern that a lot of money has been spent on the design stage and particularly the outsourcing of the design stage to consultancies. Does Mr. Doyle have an analysis of how much
money is being spent on the design stage and how much of it is turning into literally concrete
measures on our roads, so that we are making it safer for people to walk and cycle?
Mr. Graham Doyle: The Deputy would have to put that question to the Department of
Transport but I am sure that information will be provided.
Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh: Local authorities are doing an awful lot of this work during
their Part 8s or the section 38s.
Mr. Graham Doyle: They are doing it on behalf of the Department of Transport. Local authorities work with a whole range of Government Departments. We have a particular function
as regards local government but when it comes to a transport spend, for example, they spend on
behalf of the Department of Transport.
Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh: I want to come back to the flip side of the coin I spoke about
earlier in terms of septic tanks. I have a figure around small private supply. Leaving aside the
group water schemes, things Deputy Dillon spoke about and the bigger infrastructural pieces,
for small private supplies, which is the private well, I have a figure of 1,700 of these being registered with local authorities. When I look at that figure, I would suggest that it is a drop in the
ocean. Do we have any sense of what percentage of the actual number of private wells out there
that is? Just as there is a testing issue around septic tank access, similarly—–
An Cathaoirleach: That is fine; the witnesses might address the question.
Mr. Graham Doyle: It is not a question for Irish Water necessarily, Chair, it is for us and
Mr. Towey might address it. If we do not have that information, we can try to get it.
Mr. Fintan Towey: Approximately 10% of households depend on private wells. The small
private supplies that are referenced there are also private wells, but where they are used in a
setting where there is public consumption, be that either through public bodies such as a school
or business, for example, a restaurant or pub that draws on a private well and uses that water,
there is a requirement to register. Some 1,700 are registered. The view has been expressed that
it is not known—–
An Cathaoirleach: The question was about the percentage.
Mr. Fintan Towey: It is not known how many are unregistered. I would not be willing to
hazard a guess.
An Cathaoirleach: Would 1,700 be a small fraction of it? That is what the Deputy is worried about.
Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh: I am sorry; Mr. Towey gave me a percentage. We are mixing
apples and oranges again in terms of the measures. Mr. Towey gave me a figure on how many
households are dependent on a well. What was that figure again?
Mr. Fintan Towey: It is 10% of households.
Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh: Okay. I have 1,700 as an absolute figure. How many households does that translate to?
Mr. Seamus McCarthy: From another report that we did this year, there are approximately
2.1 million households in the country and, therefore, 10% of that would obviously be 210,000.
Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh: The figure is 210,000 from which we have 1,700 of these
wells.
An Cathaoirleach: Small private supplies are a different thing. I think that is where the
confusion is here.
Mr. Fintan Towey: I will clarify that there is a difference here. Private wells do not need
to be registered. Because the water from a household well is used for the household, that is the
responsibility of the householder. The private supplies that have to be registered are ones where
there is a supply to members of the public, such as a school or business.
Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh: Does that essentially mean we have no picture at all in terms
of the water quality of a lot of private wells?
Mr. Fintan Towey: Does the Deputy mean household wells?
Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh: Household wells.
Mr. Fintan Towey: Household wells are the responsibility of the householder.
An Cathaoirleach: I thank Deputy Ó Cathasaigh. I call Deputy Brady.
